13. Interview with Johan vanParys (Part 2)

Return to Johan Part 1

FF: I noticed when I came to worship that there were a lot of people assisting, your communion assistants were many and of varying ages. The same for readers or lectors. Father Michael said he would never have guessed that he'd have a 6th grade kid reading out of the lectern but he did and it was good. How do you work that with the volunteers?

The theological backbone to this is that the primary celebrant of worship is the assembly in its varied ways or incarnations - meaning it's children, young people, young adults, people who are aged, it's people who have lots of money, people who have no money, it's women, it's men, people who hear and people who don't hear, it's people who can walk and people who cannot walk. It's the entire body of Christ, which celebrates the liturgy. When people come here and they recognize themselves at least in one other person they also have to recognize themselves at least in one of the ministers. Secondly, I would say … there was a period of time in our church where we believed that we needed to have youth masses and we needed to have children's masses and every sub- group of our community. Rather than uniting, it's divisive. And Eucharist being the ultimate sacrament of unity should not be divisive, but rather unity. So we refuse to have a youth mass or a mass for gays and lesbians or a mass for newly married couples - we just don't. Every mass is for everybody at all times. But if we say that, then we also have to make sure that the ministers come from all of these groups. It is much easier to say I will have 10 lectors and train them well and that's it. And you never have to worry about it. If you have 60-100 lectors … you know, every weekend we have about 400 liturgical volunteer ministers. So we try to allow the entire assembly to really make the liturgy work. One time I remember sitting - we had just prepared the church for Easter Vigil, and about 100 people had come to help us - sitting there I remember being so moved by this, that the only thing I have to do is just sit back and let people do their thing. It's absolutely wonderful. The success of this place really relies upon all of these volunteers, we have thousands of volunteers here without whom we could not do what we are doing. And clearly when people become members of this community it's not just a matter of fulfilling a Sunday obligation, it goes much beyond that. People get involved.

FF: You were talking about how you when first came there was catechesis, and then it became lectionary-based and now it is liturgy-based. How did that movement happen?

I think the movement happened as all of us started to embrace more and more the reality that worship is the source and summit of what we do, who we are and who we hope to be. And as that embracing happened, in terms of education we realized education needs to be about Catholic dogmas but that should not be the driving force. The first step for us - maybe the driving force should be the lectionary, the Word of God as it is given to us every Sunday. And that is already quite worship-connected. The next step was, it is lectionary-based but not just lectionary-based, it is lectionary-based within the context of the entire liturgical year. So it has become liturgy-based. So that on a Sunday of Advent we talk about Scriptures on that day, but we also talk about the ethos of the liturgical season. What is it we do during Advent? Lent, what are the three great Lenten exercises - fasting praying and almsgiving. What do the readings say about this? What does this mean for me during the week? One might then need to look at specifically Catholic teachings on justice, have a teaching on justice for instance. Or at the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. What is it easier to do? To sit around a table with young people and try to explain to the dogma of the immaculate conception. Is it not easier to celebrate the mystery of the immaculate conception and then from there say, well, what might this mean? What does church say about this? Is there anything in Scripture? What do the apocryphal books say? So it's really turning the whole system upside-down.

FF: I would guess that creates a deeper understanding and desire for worship.

Yes. The three corners of this triangle - worship, education and life - really need to continuously influence and feed one another. So that in the liturgies, the celebrations of worship, we think of the educational aspects and the ultimate life that it needs to reach, so that it leading it does not become pretty turns around the altar. The other thing also that this integrating has caused is for the entire parish to move through the liturgical seasons and to move through the liturgical life of church. Whereas it is somewhat of a joke but at the same time somewhat of a reality that often you have liturgists on one side and you have catechists on the other side, and never are the two to meet. Whereas here we have come to a point, I think, where really there is an integration between education and celebration.

FF: What do you think caused this shift as a staff in embracing liturgy as the center, the heart of what you are doing? How do you think that happened, what caused that shift?

When I came here this church had had a tradition of celebrating the liturgy well for a while. My predecessor was very much committed to making that so. I stepped right into the rich fertile ground, so that made it much easier. Celebrating the liturgy has made the change. It's not something one can say, "from henceforth the liturgy will be at the heart." You have to do it well in order for that to happen. This community does the liturgy as worship very well. Very, very well. Of course, one can always work to do it better and one does, but in this imperfect world. And I think people are changed and by celebrating people do realize that liturgy is the source and summit of everything. This line, source and summit, in different translations, is on the lips of many of our people, both staff and non-staff. They know it and can joke about it because they know it. My deep belief is that worship changes people slowly but it does change them. And that does not only happen in the head but it happens in the heart. Worship depends upon the totality of the person to work. Worship uses all of the human senses to do its work. Sometimes we get complaints about incense. But incense is part of liturgy and is part of how liturgy does its work. It smells like Mass. Just for example, it may have happened to you that you walk by a counter at Daytons or Marshall Fields and these people are rushing out to spray perfume on you. Well it has happened to me that this ?-thing happened to be the cologne that a friend of mine in Belgium has been wearing for many years. And when I smell this I immediately am reminded of her and the conversations we've had and I have visions of us sitting together at the little coffee shop in Brussels. For that fact incense is very important. It smells like worship, or it smells like Easter, or it smells like Christmas. The repetition of that gives us imagery with which to interpret daily life and which helps us cope with daily life. The repetition of the psalms for instance. The monks in the Middle Ages recited the psalms over and over again. That gave them vocabulary with which to interpret the world, so that when they found themselves in an unhappy situation, rather than cursing, a psalm erupted in mind. I don't have a moment in time, but I do believe that the liturgy does it work. I always say liturgy, worship is never ecclesiologically innocent. It means something. It either means something bad and it rehearses people in something bad, or it rehearses them in something good.

FF: When we talked with George (Barrett) he said that Catholics don't necessarily talk this way, but how would you say that God has been at work in that process?

God is essentially at work in this process. Presumably everything we do is hopefully inspired. I think that what George means to say is this: that Catholics are hesitant to speak in personal terms. Catholics are resistant to saying Jesus is my personal savior because we essentially believe in corporate salvation, that as body of Christ we are saved. So our liturgy is corporate worship. It is not me and my Jesus praying. Our spirituality is corporate spirituality. Our belief in inspiredness, in being inspired by the Spirit, is a corporate belief, as a community we are inspired. That's why it is a wonderful comfort that at times I may not be inspired., but thankfully the rest of my community is inspired so that as a community we keep going in the right direction. Is God involved in this? Well, I hope so. I surely pray for that.

FF: What I have heard you say throughout is liturgy is at the heart and that happened gradually ..

It has always been at the heart, we just haven't always known it.

FF: And now that you know it, things have realigned in the parish to flesh that out. In the light of that, and in my mind the ridiculous number of young adults that come to this place for worship, do you see those things related to each other?

I think there are a number of things. First of all, this motto, traditional church and a modern message. I think if you're going to go to church you may as well go to a church that looks like a church. Our unashamedly being Catholic and yet being respectful and welcoming of those who are not. Our embracing of diversity. No matter who you are you are welcome here, we have a totally open door policy. That does not mean that we do not tell everybody that these are the official teachings of the Catholic Church. You are welcome here. But remember, these are the teachings, and if you really want to belong here, you need to consider these. Ultimately we will not say 'if you don't consider them you are not a member', because ultimately we believe that a person's individual conscience goes above any church authority, which is essential Roman Catholic teaching. I think also the fact that our church is not just about prayers and ritual turns but that it leads to something else, that we are concerned with God's little ones. We worship in order to know and in order to change.

FF: Of all the things that we have talked about, are there things that are the genius of this that we haven't discussed, or that you want to highlight?

I believe that the commitment or, acceptance, embracing of the thought that worship is the summit is the motor of this whole deal. Then of course we do have a Block Party that attracts people. I think that helps us in communicating our motto, traditional church with a modern message. What cathedral church would allow for that sort of music to be played on its campus? I may agree or disagree with serving beer and wine and having rock music - I'm not a fan of rock music - but I cannot disagree with the fact that it does breaks barriers. It's a first step for people in reconnecting with the church. That's a good result of the Block Party.

FF: You get a chance to demonstrate hospitality. In attending the Party, we were struck by being welcomed into the Basilica building with a tour. People were really friendly and my impression was that you can't walk into that place and not encounter God there. (Tape stopped. Pause for thank yous, etc. Then Johan had one more thing to say. Start tape.)

We make use of the media unashamedly. Some think that is wrong, that you shouldn't do that, but St. Paul did it. Why should we not do it? Just different media. We really try to keep a profile in the news and, as a matter of fact, when anything happens, either in the Catholic Church or in the world, this is a place where they come, to ask for opinions, to film, whatever.

Quotables:
"Good liturgy happens when it is outward and sends people into world to be Christ to the world."
"…we are called to be Eucharist to the world, to be the body of Christ to the world for the salvation of the world."
"Catholics are hesitant to speak in personal terms. Catholics are resistant to saying Jesus is my personal savior because we essentially believe in corporate salvation, that as body of Christ we are saved. So our liturgy is corporate worship. It is not me and my Jesus praying. Our spirituality is corporate spirituality. Our belief in inspiredness, in being inspired by the Spirit, is a corporate belief, as a community we are inspired. That's why it is a wonderful comfort that at times I may not be inspired, but thankfully the rest of my community is inspired so that as a community we keep going in the right direction. Is God involved in this? Well, I hope so. I surely pray for that."